Sinden
So the man who helped implement the philosophy that gave birth to the “Big, Bad Bruins” now would like to see fighting taken out of the NHL game.
This summer’s tragic events involving the deaths of Rick Rypien, Derek Boogaard and Wade Belak has people from all corners of the sport, and even outside of it, calling for ways to better prevent such occurrences. Many are pointing the blame finger at the role of fighting in pro hockey.
In an interview with Eric Duhatschek of The Globe & Mail, Sinden, who coached the 1969-70 Bruins to the Stanley Cup title and then was general manager and president of the Bruins for decades-worth of teams that relied on toughness to succeed, had this to say:
“If the wise men of today sat down and started a brand new hockey league, they wouldn’t include fighting. They wouldn’t start off by saying, ‘Let’s let everybody fight and just give them a five-minute major.’ It wouldn’t fit today. How you ever get it out entirely, I don’t know, but they have opportunities to adjust things so these goons – and people who are only in the game to fight – could be limited and slowed down. That they could do.”
It’s interesting to see how the opinions of a Hall-of-Fame builder who has been in the league so long can change over the course of time. Of course, the entire league will never evolve to the point where fighting gets eliminated.
Personally, I could take it or leave it — particularly when it’s a staged bout between two guys who aren’t going to skate more than two minutes apiece in the game. But by and large, a majority of players seem to think fighting still plays an important role as part of the game. Maybe they don’t want to offend some of their teammates that play the fighter’s role, or have some fear that the rarer the fight the more chance they’ll have to partake in one, but typically players don’t want fighting eliminate. To me, that speaks to it being part of the game more than what people sitting at keyboards or in boardrooms have to say.
RD
I don’t think I’ve ever said the refs favoured Montreal. The criticism I have of the present Habs is the attempts to feign like there should have been a call. I never saw Lafleur, Lapointe, Shutt, Cournoyer, Robinson, etc. ever lower themselves to that type of play. I REALLY hope I never see a Bruin play like that. If I do, I won’t be the only one, of this blog, who would want to see him traded in a hurry.
Some of it comes down to bias. A Canadien hooks a Bruin and he goes down…we scream bloody murder. A Bruin trips a Canadien and he goes down, he’s a diver. People can’t be objective about stuff like that. ESPECIALLY if you are listening to people like Jack Edwards who are self admitted fan boys with microphones.
If the Bruins had the Canadiens’ powerplay, you’d notice when the calls go your way more often.
Here’s another way to look at it. The Canadiens were among the most penalized teams in the league last year if you don’t include misconducts and fighting majors (this tends to pad the stats). So after seeing their team on the penalty kill so often all year and playoffs, it’s hard to believe people think the reffing is working in the favor of the habs.
Dean, there’s nothing wrong with a swagger on the ice. When Selane celebrates after scoring a goal, it’s cool. When Subban does the same celebration, it’s brash and uppity. Subban plays well. He skates hard. He hits like a truck and yes does get into an occasional fight. In every interview I’ve seen with this kid, he’s been nothing but class. If he wants to entertain the crowd when he scores a goal, good for him. He’s selling tickets and jerseys for the NHL and making the fans happy at the same time.
RD
I have always respected Hab teams in the past. You may have noticed that the names I’ve mentioned of past Habs, would be a credit to any organization. But, you have too many guys that draw penalties, by faking/acting, for me to respect. However, I should have included Gionta and Deharnis on my list, Cammalleri I’m not so sure. The Habs have too much tradition to lower themselves into a team that tries to fool referees, in order to win. I’m disappointed with the Red Wings as well because they have some players that do the same.
Your 24 Cups do speak to the franchise’s successful past. As well, the NHL’s best rivalry is the Habs vs. the Bruins.
I can admit a little over zealousness on the part of lumping Subban up there with cooke and avery since he has not done much to warrant such a comparison yet, but that swagger that If i ignore the Habs logo on his jersey i can enjoy a little if unchecked for a few years will result in a maxim laparrier style of play chippy cheap and unable to back it up, long live the enforcer.
Hey Bruins16,
I know you don’t like the habs, and your points about Subban are valid. He’s a rookie and he will mature. Wearing my habs goggles, when I look at the fight with Lupul, I don’t fault Subban. Lupul and Subban were too close together to take off the helmets. Usually, when players take off their helmets before a fight, the stay out of punching range. Lupul went straight towards him while playing with his chin strap. Not only is he guilty of hitting Subban very late, but he’s also an idiot for skating towards his opponent while taking off his helmet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LNfBqPlp-0
As for hiding behind Lucic and Horton, I think that’s exactly what he should do. If Moen were to go after Krejci, I’d expect Krejci to get behind the bigger players. Subban’s going to be a great player, maybe a franchise player so he shouldn’t be wasting his time satisfying the rage of some fighter with huge physical advantages.
As for past habs, with 24 cups, they would be a tough crowd to please. If I were them, I’d be quite pleased with the current bunch though now that Pouliot and Lappiere aren’t with the club. Even though they aren’t big, you end up respecting guys like Gionta, Cammalleri, Deharnais. None of these guys will be hall of famers but they don’t quit. It’s not like the habs were complete pushovers. Remember, it was overtime of game 7. Speed can win some games.
RD
I hate to agree with a Hab fan, but Subban should not be in the same category as Cooke or Avery. He is, however, guilty of hiding behind Gill when Lucic and Horton are after him, faking to take his helmet off in a fight and then decided to leave it on, and embelishment to draw penalties. As well, he talks too much. Probably the only two Habs that past Canadien players would be proud of are Georges and Price. I imagine Guy Lafleur is now a Bruin fan.
All great replies on this topic. As a fan who was lucky enough to attend the feb 3 game against the Stars look it up on you tube. I believe six fights and 4-1 lead thru the first period. were the fans horrified that htere were three fights in the first ten seconds no it was deafning in the garden. Then we got goals and you bassically could see it on the stars faces and bench lets just get out of here was written all over there faces. Games like that can change and did change the momentum of the B’s followed up by a beatdown of the Habs. The media needs to get over this violence mantra they are creating it will not help the future instead pick on soemthing like zamboni emmisions or there will be no sport to report on.
It’s unfair to compare Subban to Avery and Cook. The kid’s never been suspended and hasn’t committed a head shot.
I know you guys don’t like the guy for going down on Krejci’s hook but he’s not a head hunter. Marchand has a headshot or two on his resume though…
Fighting has nothing to do with it. the assumption that it does is just a sad bettman TSN let’s take anything physical out of the game so we can have a league full of Ballerinas. Fighting served a greater purpose before the instigator rule was introduced because runs were not taken. Also players like subban and I will be unbiased here marchand too need to be taken to task when they step over the line and by limiting fighting you are just insuring that cook, subban, and avery style hits go unpunished and i though the NHL would have figured that out seeing how they’ve lost Savard and almost Crosby. Hockey is a competitive game where each side pushes the envelope as far as possible to gain an edge, you know why Gretzky never got run from behind because semenko would bash your teeth in. These players’ deaths were tragic but maybe the focus shouldnt be on whether they were fighters but one was a recovering drug addict and the other suffered from depression and belak was forced into early retirement after dedicating his life and soul to being a pro hockey player, it’s not a gear you can turn off and in my opinion this falls squarely on the NHLPA not fighting.
Hey Bruins16,
I’ll never pass up a chance to post this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_BStkVC_zQ
Anyways, that’s just fun and games because I’m sure you can get some clips going the other way. Maybe not as good, but plenty of them.
Boston wouldn’t be impacted by this change much. Their gooniest player — Thornton is one of the better players that fight in the league. If they phased fighting out, he might still get a spot in the lineup if he worked at it.
The big white elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about is alcohol, prescription pain killers, recreational drugs and depression. These fighters that died over the summer probably all had these issues which honestly is a downward spiral.
Toss post concussion syndrome symptoms like depression and paranoia in with alcohol and drug abuse and you have basically Boogard and Rypien. I thought Belak had his kit more together than the other two based on interviews but it goes to show you never know what goes on after games.
Get more guys in the substance abuse program and maybe we can save some more lives.
You can’t take fighting out of the league without completely changing the game. If you take fighting out, then make a minor penalty 4 minutes or people will be taking too many liberties.
have a mando minimum skate time in the regular season (6 or 8 min / game) to lose the goons.
the diving / fakery that’s best exemplified by the habs, bolts & queens is more troubling than the goons.
Fighting is not the reason for these deaths. I’d much rather get rid of the wimps that dive and fake injuries. They are the disgrace of hockey. Head hunting is also more of a concern as well. The league needs to address a more consistent penalty for this act. Forget intent or injury Every time you come up high on a player and hit his head, it’s a 10 game suspension. None of this crap about going to the league penalty enforcer. If you do it again the penalty keeps going up by 10 games. Savvy and Sid injuries have yet to affect a change in penalties that inhibit future hits enough. Get a clue NHL. Fights are a way of policing the crap that goes on that the NHL doesn’t prevent enough
I have been saying this for at least 5 years now. What purpose do enforcers have on a roster, aside than being a WWE-type attraction?? All of these fights are basically staged between two-guys who are playing a part and realize that the other guy is playing the same part. They line-up beside one another, agree it’s time (mainly cause the coach has told them that, simply by putting them on the ice) and the fight results… It’s usually a boring one because both guys have studied their “art” and rarely make a mistake that leaves them vulnerable.
For my money, I’d much rather watch a fight between two guys, immediately reacting to their anger over a situation and then doing something about it themselves. Getting rid of “goons” won’t get rid of fighting, but it would do a great job in getting rid of pointless fights. That’s for sure.
Really, do any of the other players fear the goon?? He’ll never fight them no matter what they do and can’t do much else to harm them, simply because they lack the necessary skill to line them up. If I go run a muck on the ice, it won’t be me who answers for it. It will be the poor guy who’s only shift of the game is now to defend the actions I did a few plays ago.
And it’s not hard to eliminate them. Watch what happens when a team plays a team without an enforcer. Suddenly their enforcer takes a seat as the healthy scratch. If that player is of any other use in the lineup, this wouldn’t be the case. Seems simple to me. In the least case, you have a guy down on the farm who can be summoned, when/if needed.
To react to the multitude of ridiculous articles using these suicides to make a harder push for the elimination of fighting, how does that even make sense??! These guys all killed themselves after losing their jobs or at least having trouble maintaining them. How would ELIMINATING their job be any good to them?!
I doubt this has anything related to being a tough guy explicitly. These players all appear to have had preexisting issues before time of death that are at best loosely related to being a tough guy, and most of the issues are barely hockey related. I don’t think there are too many serious injuries caused by fights as compared to some aspects of the game.
Sure I appreciate a good hit, even an intimidating one, but I think there´s something ridiculous seeing 2 guys fighting while everyone around is laughing. This is the circus side of hockey…
I guess Shanahan would have to monitor players like Trevor Gillies if this effort gathers momentum.
Just speculating here but my guess is these guys besides have personnel issues maybe had drug problems too. I’m talking about steroids, sounds like roidrage.
It seems to popular view that the role these three deceased played created their depression/mental health issues; but I think it’s more likely their personality and/or mental health issues led to them adopting the goon role.
I’m all for getting rid of the staged fights. If it takes more than five seconds to throw the first punch the refs should break it up. If a player isn’t pissed off enough to just start swinging than the fight isn’t necessary. Fighting has a place in the game but it’s the game I enjoy not the sideshow.
If the NHL banned fighting I wouldnt be surprised if some rich businessman started a new league that embraced and encouraged fighting. It wouldn’t be good hockey but it would draw a hell of alot of “old-school hockey”/Slapshot type of fans, and there are quite a bit. Seems like with the NHL so concerned with growing the sport they shouldn’t be considering alienating a core group of fans and splitting their already small yet passionate fan base into factions.
As horrible as this summer has been for the hockey community as more information comes out it really seems more likely that Boogaard/Rypien/Belak being enforcers that died in the Summer of 2011 is just a cosmic happenstance and they were individually troubled kids with unique and separate demons of their own that they lost battles to coincidentally in one sad season.
Nothing is more exciting and beautiful to watch than a well executed, fundamentally sound, and skillfully played hockey game and I agree the time of the enforcer should be reaching an end but what’s next eliminating body checks? It seems like the good folks to the north are hell-bent on eradicating a unique, attractive and popular aspect of the game based on some misguided moral sense of “how the game should be played” in opposition to how its been played for 100 years. They use any event they can to justify their position and are tirelessly lobbying to transform hockey permanently into what is litle more than soccer on ice.
JPT
Your swipes at the Bruin organization have as much impact as the bodychecks delivered by those runty Hab forwards. (not much) If the NHL starts to handout misconducts, along with penalties, for dives your Habs and the Canucks will have the shortest benches in the league. Ah well, your boys will probably get an emmy or two, at the Academy Awards.
How about getting rid of the dives first
Finally, some common sense coming out of the Bruins organization.
If they take out fighting out or lengthen the penalty for fighting, I can live with that. However, I would also like to lengthen or throw out the players that fake/act so that opposing teams get penalties. (Alex Burroughs, P.K. Subban, Henrik Sedin) If anything devalues the game, it is the soccer-dives. As well, I would like the defence to be able to hit a forward when they dump the puck in. I know that the Devils won Cups by riding them into the boards and then holding up opponents. However, if they allowed a hit, without the impediment of holding against the boards, I think it would make a better game. Watch Sidenberg and Boychuk shine then!
I think Shawn Thornton still plays for Boston if they take out fighting. He still hits opposing players and he had double digits goals and assists. As well, he contributes to team chemistry.
I don’t believe these deaths are related to the tough guy role in hockey. Each had their own personal battles. Only in Western culture is suicide such a taboo. I think it is up to the indivivdual to make their own choices. Truth be told if all suicide victims could have a do-over they would. There will always be that day that you’re glad you’re alive. Some just don’t get that day.
Getting rid of useless goons who play 2 minutes just to fight, sure. Getting rid of fighting so you devalue guys like Shawn Thornton, who can contribute in other ways, is ridiculous. If Hockey ever removed fighting or minimized it more than they have with the instigator rule, it won’t be the sport I grew up to love and I don’t know that it’d keep me watching.
We have eliminated the enforcers and now we have cheap shot artist like Avery Cooke. Savard looks like he is done and Crosby is questionable of coming back soon. I bet if the enforcers were around the Cookes and Avery’s would think twice of doing the cheap shots. Lets get rid of fighters and replace them with the Avery’s of the world. Pretty much what has been done already. Work on rules regarding contact above the shoulders. That’s what the NHL needs. Leave the fighting alone.
Eliminating the so-called ” goons” would be a good move.